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Bitte um originalen Text #28681
23/05/07 02:37 AM
23/05/07 02:37 AM
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Rachida Azercane Offline OP
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ich musste so heulen als ich heute den Brief von meinem großonkel gelesen habe und ich bitte hier um Hilfe
wer kann mir den originalen Text durchgeben
Der Traum meines Vaters ist alles über seinen lieblingsonkel zu lesen und ich möchte meinen Vater dies als Geschenk machen
ich weiss dass ein Text in Spanisch gibt, weil ich von meine Oma erfahren habe dass Großonkel Azerkan spanisch als offizielle Sprache nutzte weil er für Abdelkrim als Außenminister fungierte
diesen Mann Mohand Azerkan hat man leider vergessen, dabei war er die rechte Hand von Mohamed Andelkrim und sein Schwager
wir haben ihn nicht vergessen, mein Vater trauert immer noch um ihn da er im Exil in Egypten wohl gestorben ist
-------------------------------------
mohand azerkan was the foreign minister of the rifian goverment , i found this letter in a book called " france, spain and the rif", chapter 11 titled : in search of peace ,page 248 through 252 , the author of the book WALTER B. HARRIS is no ordinary writer , he not only had a great deal of knowledge about morocco , he did take an active part in moroccan affairs and exercised a substantial influence on the moroccan sultan abdelaziz , in order to reform the medieval kingdom.
harris was a strong supporter of the "civilizing mission" of the european powers, and was annoyed by the succeses of mohand n'abdelkrim, however harris and abdelkrim maintained a frequent correspondence during the rif war period 1921- 26 , for that harris's goal was to convince the rifian leader that any resistance will end in failure , and it will be better for the rifians to make a deal with the europeans.
abdelkrim's goal was to influence the british public opinion through the writing of walter harris , he was the london times correspondent and his opinion and expertise was taken seriously in britain.


IN SEARCH OF PEACE.

early in july, 1923, when the summer campaign had already began, delegates of the spanish goverment and abdelkrim's representatives met on board a steamer off the rif coast to discuss terms of peace, no solution however was reached, but it is evident that both parties desired an entente, for on his return on july the 12 th to melilla the secretary-general of the spanish protectorate, senor diego saavedra , wrote to abdelkrim's chief delegate, si mohammed azerkan, stating that in reply to a letter he had found awaiting him, the spanish goverment was prepared to reopen negotiations, the secretary-general's letter took to some extent the form of an ultimatum and was recognized as such by abdelkrim.
this correspondence, of which abdelkrim forwarded me what purported to be arabic copies, clearly demonstrate the impasse which had been reached.

(translation)

15 july,1923.

praise be to god.
from the secretary general don diego saavedra to sid mohammed ben mohammed azerkan.
* * * * *
it is necessary to establish the points on which we shall negotiate, it must be as follows : there will be no negotiation or discussion that takes into consideration the independence of the rifian state or any mention of the treaty of 1912, it is possible to grant a kind of independence , economical and administrative, to the rifian tribes, and also to confirm the position and rank which si mohammed ben abdel krim el-khatabi (abdelkrim) enjoys at present, also that of governors of the tribes who rule under the supervision of the maghzen (sultan's goverment) and under the protection of the spanish goverment.
the negotiation shall be confined specially to the means of developing commerce, industry, and agriculture amongst the rifian tribes and to the granting to them of material and moral assistance by the maghzen and the protecting power.
if you agree to these conditions I beg you to send me a document signed by your chief (abdelkrim) and the final negotiations will take place.
finally, I beg you to consider me as being very desirous of bringing about a lasting peace and of removing all your doubts that we are trying to deceive you, we desire to act with you in good faith and to prevent bloodshed, it is our hope and wish that the Rif should progress in wealth and enlightenment , not in the interests of spain alone but also in those of the rifians themselves.
above all, I must inform you, by orders of the spanish goverment, that your reply to our terms must be in our hands WITHIN FORTY-EIGHT HOURS from the time that you receive this letter, I shall regret if you turn a deaf ear to propositions that are all to your benefit and if you refuse what is to your advantage, taking instead a road which will bring calamity upon you, if you continue in error, spain will adopt every means to put down this rebellion in a way that is less her choice than her duty to the civilized powers that entrusted her with this mission , if you are sincere in your expressed desire for peace, choose without hesitation the road that leads to rectitude and progress.
when you had duly considered these words, and when all suspicion is removed from your minds, send your reply, and may peace be upon all.

DIEGO SAAVEDRA

to this letter the 'foreign minister of the rifian government' replied on july the 24th as follows:

(TRANSLATION)

AJDIR (RIF),24 july, 1923
praise be to god.
from sid mohammed ben mohammed azerkan to senor diego saavedra,salutations and regards.
* * * * *
your letter resembles a final ultimatum, and as such its contents caused us much surprise.
being as I am the minister of foreign affairs to the rifian government I feel bound to inform you that our terms are as follows:
that the rifian government established upon modern ideas and on the principles of civilization, consider itself independent politically and economically - privileged to enjoy our freedom as we have enjoyed it for centuries and to live as other people live, we consider that we have the right to enjoy the possession of our territory in preference to any other nation, and we consider that the spanish colonial party have transgressed and violated our rights, and they have no justification for their pretence for a claim to make a protectorate of our rifian state, we have never recognized this protectorate, and we never shall recognize it, we refuse it once and for all, we desire to be our own rulers and to maintain and preserve our legal and undisputable rights.
we shall defend our independence by every means in our power, and we protest to the spanish nation and its intelligent people, who, we believe, do not dispute the legality of our demands.
we state - before the spanish colonial party sheds the blood of more of the children of spain in order to promote their private ambitions and their imaginary pretentions-that if only they will take count with their consciences they will realize they are greatly at fault , and that they have caused their country great losses through their colonial ambitions, (a policy) that is contrary to the spanish interests, let them remedy their error before it becomes still more entangled, we protest against the wicked actions of the colonial party, we protest to the civilized world and to humanity, we are in no way responsible for the blood that has been shed nor for the money that has been wasted.
we are surprised that you ignore the interests of spain herself in not making peace with the Rif by recognizing its independence, and thus keeping up neighbourly relations and stregthening the bonds of union with our rifian people, instead of infringing our rights, of humiliating our people, and ignoring all the humane and legal doctrines of universal law such as are contained in the treaty of versailles, which was drawn up after the great war.
this war taught mankind the penalty of ill-doing, of violation and of pride, and by it the world has learned also that no man is to be despised , and that it is a natural duty to leave every people to manage its own affairs, power and force fail before right, the treaty (of versailles) was drawn up by the chief men of great nations who had taken part in the war and and experieced its terrible consequences, in the end they could not fail to recognize the truth, and they gave to all nations, even the smallest, the rights of self-government, yet politicians have said that treaties are only ink upon paper and that power rests with the sword, but truth is truth, otherwise the world will remain always in trouble and in perplexity, peace will not come till every nation is at liberty to defend its rights, it would be no disgrace to spain if she were to live in peace with the rifians after recognizing our government and its independence, and thus increasing the common interests of the two countries, on the contrary, it would be a noble action and an honour to her, it would form a magnificent record in her history, and we rifian people are prepared to welcome a change (of policy) in the spanish colonial party, for their present attitude is unjust, we sincerely hope that the misunderstanding will be removed, the cause of it is due to the wrong methods that they adopt, to their violence and to their failure to look ahead or to appreciate the consequences that must ensue.

the rifian government will be truly sorry if the colonial party persist in its transgression and its tiranny. imagine yourselves to be the party that is being invaded, your homes in the hands of foreigners intent upon the possession of your property, would you submit to the invaders because they merely claimed certain rights and asserted their pretentions ? I think that you , and even your womenkind , would defend yourselves and refuse to accept the humiliation of submission,your history in this respect testifies for you that this is so, know that the rif and all its people are ready to die and, believe me, they will die in the cause of truth, they will defend their honour to the last, and nothing will shake their determination unless the spanish colonial party will abandon its wicked motives - otherwise the rifians will die to a man.
I must declare once and for all that the rif will not change its attitude, nor give up the principles upon which we act - that is to say, we will not reopen negotiations for peace exept upon the condition of the recognition by spain of the INDEPENDENCE OF THE RIF.

mohammed ben mohammed azerkan .


france, spain and the rif by walter b. harris 1927
-------------------------------------------------
oder wer kann mir dieses Buch vermitteln
rachida

Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28682
23/05/07 01:00 PM
23/05/07 01:00 PM
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Salam rachida

ich weiß nicht ob es das ist was du suchst,
aber es gibt da ein wunderbares sprachtool bei google:

http://www.google.de/language_tools?hl=de

das englisch nach arabisch, bzw arabisch nach englisch übersetzen kann und ich bin immer wieder erstaunt wie gut das funktioniert, das übersetzt zum teil diese sprachkombination bei weitem besser, genauer als europäische sprachen untereinander.
ich weiß nicht welche software genies da am werke waren aber es ist wirklich genial gemacht


inshallah hilft es dir


salam

Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28683
23/05/07 02:44 PM
23/05/07 02:44 PM
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Hallo Rachida,

Mohand Azerkane war Aussenminister der Rif-Republik und er hat mehrere Interviews gegeben. Ich weiß, dass in Rabat im Archiv der marokkanischen nationalen Bibliothek seine eigene Texte in einigen Sprachen vorhanden sind.
Es gibt sogar eine Tonaufnahme auf Tamazight, ich glaube, es war ein Interview mit der Zeitung " Times".
Morgen gebe ich dir die genauen Angaben!

Gruß
Afulki.

P.S: Abid , ich hoffe, du bist nicht wegen meiner Erläuterungen " Autonomie im Rif" nicht beleidigt


Tidt n umya!
Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28684
23/05/07 04:10 PM
23/05/07 04:10 PM
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Rachida Azercane Offline OP
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Danke Afulki
wir haben immer nach irgend etwas von ihm gesucht mein Vater hat nur Erinerungen, mein Oma trauerte um ihren Bruder bis ihrer Tot, jetzt möchte ich meine Familie diesen Geschenk machen, auch wenn es núr symbolisch ist.
Heute macht es mich traurig dass eine ganze Geschichte von Marokko in Vergessenheit geraten ist \:\( . Wie Spanien, Frankreich und Deutschland damals Marokko unter DRuck gesetzt haben, sogar Gifte eingesetzt haben.
Abdelkrim hatte den Norden Marokko verteidigt, ein Rif der islamisch-modern und demokrat, war seine Vision und der seiner Anhänger

Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28685
25/05/07 04:39 PM
25/05/07 04:39 PM
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Hallo Rachida,

im Archiv der marokkanischen "Bibliotheque generale" in Rabat gibt es ein interessantes Manuskript von Mohand Azerkane über seine Aktivitäten und Interviews mit den ausländischen Ansprechpartnern, die Geschäfte mit der Rif-Republik machten.
Dein Onkel heisst mit Vornahme dort aber nicht "Mohand" sondern " Mohammed" Azerkane.
Und das ist das beste Material!!
Wenn du in Rabat bist, musst du die Leitung um eine Kopie bitten, viele Forscher haben es auch so gemacht, um an dieses Manuskript zu kommen.

Einer von ihnen, ist Germain Ayache, ein marokkanisch-jüdischer Autor. Er hat zwei Bücher in französischer Sprache geschrieben( Les origines de guerre du Rif 1981 / la guerre du Rif 1996), in denen gute Informationen über ihn sind. Er berichtet u.a über die Reise von Mohand Azerkane nach Paris.

Ein weiterer interessanter Mann, der Mohand Azerkane und Abdelkrim persönlich sehr gut kannte
und mit ihnen viele Interviews geführt hatte, ist Walter Harris, ein englischer Journalist der " Times". Dieser Engländer hatte mehrere Briefe von Azerkane und Abdelkrim nach England ins Englische übersetzt und an die englischen Behörden geschickt, aber auch vieles zwischen 1923 und 1927 in der veröfentlicht.

Ich hoffe, diese Infos werden dir erstmal helfen.
Viele Grüße,
Afulki


Tidt n umya!
Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28686
31/05/07 11:06 PM
31/05/07 11:06 PM
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Hallo Rachida,
es wäre schön noch mehr über die Geschichte Marokkos, Abdelkrims und deines berühmten Verwandten?! zu erfahren...
Kannst Du ein wenig berichten?
(Ich hatte bereits ein Buch in den Händen, aber ein paar Sätze hier im Forum wären sicher für viele lehrreich)

Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28687
31/05/07 11:07 PM
31/05/07 11:07 PM
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Hallo Rachida,
es wäre schön noch mehr über die Geschichte Marokkos, Abdelkrims und deines berühmten Verwandten?! zu erfahren...
Kannst Du ein wenig berichten?
(Ich hatte bereits ein Buch in den Händen, aber ein paar Sätze hier im Forum wären sicher für viele lehrreich)

Re: Bitte um originalen Text #28688
01/06/07 12:14 AM
01/06/07 12:14 AM
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Rachida Azercane Offline OP
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Rachida Azercane  Offline OP
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Liebe Isabelle
sehr gerne
aber wenn ich zurück bin
ich bin ab morgen in Marokko für 2 Wochen danach verspreche ich mehr zu berichten auch über das was ich vor kurzem dank afulki erfahren habe
ich wünsche Euch eine schöne Zeit
rachida


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